ESTO Bonus Episode: Keynoter Sally Hogshead on Maximizing Communication Personally & Professionally

Intro: Recorded live at ESTO in Columbus, Ohio, this is Brand USA Talks Travel. Get ready to take mental notes from the top minds and creative thinkers who are driving innovation in destination marketing, content, research, public relations, policy, and more. Now, here's your host, Mark Lapidus. 

Mark Lapidus [0:19]: This podcast episode was scheduled to be recorded in Columbus, Ohio, but we just ran out of time, so we recorded this one after our return to Washington, DC. Hope you enjoy this ESTO bonus episode with keynote speaker Sally Hogshead. 

Mark Lapidus [0:32]: How did you come up with the concept of fascinate? 

Sally Hogshead [0:35]: Have you ever wondered what kind of first impression you make when you walk into a room? 

Mark Lapidus [0:41]: Every single time. 

Sally Hogshead [0:42]: Yeah, and have you ever wondered why some presentations or conversations go really well, and they seem to flow, and you feel confident, and they're hearing and remembering what you're saying, while other times you flounder? 

Mark Lapidus [0:55]: For sure. 

Sally Hogshead [0:55]: I wanted to understand: how can we not only predict, but identify, what are the spoken and unspoken cues of communication that go back and forth between you and your listener every time you communicate? From the moment you walk into the room, to the moment that you have to play your A-game in a big presentation, all the way through with your beloved family, your community, your significant other. What are the modes of communication that are most, not only effective, but empowering for you? And so, about 15 years ago, I transitioned away from my career in advertising, where I studied the cues and signals that brands send to their consumers, and I turned that same insight onto people. Why, as individuals, do we sometimes have a great advantage? Why are there certain scenarios that allow us to flourish, to feel like, "Wow, this is really what I was put on this earth to do?" And there are other situations where we feel like we're stuck in quicksand? And as I began studying the science behind it, I discovered that it's very similar to branding. There are certain scenarios that allow you to be seen at your best, and there are other scenarios that put you at a disadvantage. And the deeper that I went into this, and the more I began studying the science of communication, I stumbled across an old medical journal from the 1800s, and it described the word "fascinare." Fascinare. It's an ancient Latin word, and it's one of the first words in written language. "To fascinate." And the translation of the word "fascinate" is "to bewitch or hold captive," so your listener is powerless to resist. I thought, oh man, that's kind of sexy, and it's very different than the way marketing works. So I began going down this research rabbit hole and trying to understand, okay, what is fascination? And the more I studied it, the word shows up across the globe throughout time. The word describes the neurological force of attraction that we have towards specific hardwired people, foods, concepts, scenarios. It's why you crave a slice of pizza when you're on a diet; it's why you fall in love with one person and not another. More importantly, it's relevant to the travel industry. It's why you book one destination rather than another or why you want to work with one travel agent. Why a certain campaign sparks your interest. And what I learned is that there are seven different ways that an individual or a destination can fascinate the listener or the consumer. And the more that we can understand this science of fascination, the more that we can begin to apply this in our daily conversations and in our branding, the more likely we are to be heard, remembered, adored, respected, admired, and referred. 

Mark Lapidus [3:55]: I'm already fascinated. 

Sally Hogshead [3:56]: It's a cool, cool concept, isn't it? 

Mark Lapidus [3:59]: It really is. 

Sally Hogshead [4:00]: Oh, and here's where it gets really interesting, Mark. Around the 1920s we stopped talking about the word "fascination" in these almost hypnotic terms. We stopped talking about the spellbinding hypnosis of fascination, and we start talking about paying attention. Well, what happened in the 1920s? 

Mark Lapidus [4:18]: The loss of alcohol. 

Sally Hogshead [4:20]: Yeah, prohibition makes us all a little more thoughtful. But that's when we began the modern concept of marketing. Marketing is about repeating a concept so many times that it gets beaten into the minds of the consumer. It's how we grew up with Morton Salt, AT&T, Kellogg's. But before then we saw the reason for becoming infatuated or the reason why we purchased one offering versus another is because our brains are drawn to it, whether we realize it or not. So by understanding that, look, there are these deeply-wired primal forces that are driving our decision making and driving our communication. It gives us a lot more of an ability to command and control how we're perceived by others, how our communication is received and acted upon or not. 

Mark Lapidus [5:09]: I am so excited to welcome Sally Hogshead. Is that your maiden name or your married name? 

Sally Hogshead [5:14]: What's wonderful is that it's my maiden name, which means I opted in to the name. 

Mark Lapidus [5:20]: Because people remember it, right? I mean, I have a pretty strange last name too. But what I've noticed over the years, especially when I was on radio years ago, is that people do remember because it's unusual. It's not Brown or Smith or Jones. 

Sally Hogshead [5:31]: And the corollary to that with a destination is, sometimes there's an element to a destination that might seem polarizing to begin with, but intelligent, fascinating marketing can overcome that and turn a perceived disadvantage into advantage. My husband and I live in Florida, and we love going to the sleepy little surf town named New Smyrna Beach. Tiny little town, very few retail establishments, and there's a little margarita bar named Gnarly's Surf Shack. And it's at the base of a drawbridge. It's the only way to get in and out of town. But the drawbridge is low, and it opens for the boats that are coming through; not on a schedule, just whenever there's a sailboat. And so there's this infamous sound. "Ding, ding, ding." You can hear the drawbridge all throughout the town. And when the drawbridge goes up, "ding, ding, ding," the cars back up. And so Gnarly's, as a small, independent, small-business restaurant, they had a challenge that as the cars back up, the carbon monoxide backs up. And so people didn't want to sit on the outdoor porch. So they did a brilliant promotion that all of us can learn from. The promotion was called "Bridge up, beers down." When the bridge goes up, as soon as you hear "ding, ding, ding," the price of beer falls to $0.25. So they took this disadvantage, and now it became a tourist attraction that people actually go to Gnarly's in order to be able to have the "ding, ding, ding," with the motorcycles and the cars and the carbon monoxide, because it's almost like playing a game. And the lesson that we can learn from this is, of course, you can spend more on marketing. You can hire more people in your department. You can increase your overhead. But in some cases, we don't all have the whitest sandy beach or the tallest skyscrapers. We have to look deeper. We have to look at what is fascinating, and then how do we highlight that in what is sometimes a counterintuitive way? 

Mark Lapidus [7:21]: So I didn't get too far into my introduction. I'm going to go back to it, because I want you guys to know Sally's background. First of all, Sally is a member of the Speakers Hall of Fame, and there are not many in that Hall of Fame, right? 

Sally Hogshead [7:32]: There are not. I was incredibly honored to be inducted. There are only 172 living members. And what that means is, studying the craft of communicating to an audience so that they are most likely to not only feel inspired and informed, but to feel as though they experienced an epiphany in our time together, so that their decision making changes, because they are able to see the world in a new, enlightened way, based on a high-level business concept. And one of my favorite things about being part of U.S. Travel Association's ESTO event was describing this high level concept of fascination, and how people in the audience can apply it to themselves and their teams, but also to their destination. 

Mark Lapidus [8:14]: I also want our listeners to know that Sally has two New York Times bestselling books. Fascinate: How to Make Your Brand Impossible to Resist, and The World Sees You: Discover Your Highest Value Through the Science of Fascination. So welcome to Brand USA Talks Travel, Sally. I don't think I've ever done this, like, ten minutes into the show, but that's fine. It's only been so fascinating already. Listen, I was at the airport coming back from ESTO, and I bumped into a bunch of people who attended the event. And you will be very happy to know that they all took your test, and that they were comparing their types. It's wonderful that your presentation resulted in such action. And, of course, I did take the test myself. You want to guess what I came out as? 

Sally Hogshead [8:52]: Ooh, can you tell me, and let's talk about how you apply your result? 

Mark Lapidus [8:57]: Okay. I came out as the Connoisseur. 

Sally Hogshead [9:00]: Interestingly, the Connoisseur was the number one most prevalent archetype there at our ESTO audience. May I describe what that means? 

Mark Lapidus [9:09]: Sure. 

Sally Hogshead [9:10]: When I created the Fascinate system, my goal was to help people understand how they are perceived by other people. Have you ever taken a traditional personality test? Like- 

Mark Lapidus [9:21]: Of course. Myers-Briggs, many times. 

Sally Hogshead [9:23]: - Myers-Briggs, DISC, Kolbe, right? Yeah. These are gold standard tests. They are based on psychology, and they're measuring, how do you see the world? How do you see other people? How do you relate to other people? I flipped it around, and using the science of branding, just like a focus group, I measure how other people see you at your best. How does your listener see you? Your prospect, your client, your team members? How do they see you? How do they perceive you? Why do they respect you? Why did that high school coach support you? Why did that boss evangelize for you? Well, there's a science behind it. I discovered that there are seven different ways that people communicate, and that determines how they're seen by others. When you took the Fascinate test - and it was only five minutes, right? It's only 28 questions. 

Mark Lapidus [10:15]: I answer questions really quickly, so I think it took maybe three minutes. 

Sally Hogshead [10:19]: Yeah. What the test is measuring is just like a focus group. What do other people think and feel as a result of your communication? When I was in advertising, one of my clients was Coca-Cola. I sat through a lot of focus groups, and I imagine, Mark, you've been into a focus group or two. 

Mark Lapidus [10:37]: Many. I've done them myself, actually. 

Sally Hogshead [10:40]: Yeah. So in a focus group, for anybody who hasn't had the joy of eating sub sandwiches behind a one-way glass mirror, there's a group of people who are drawn in who are invited to come in. They're potential consumers for a product or service, like Coke. And there's a moderator, and the moderator asks questions that are drawing out the conscious or unconscious cues that people associate with the certain brand. So with Coke, the questions might be, "What do you drink on a hot day when you're thirsty?" Or "Raise your hand if you drink Pepsi?" "Why do you drink Pepsi?" And the goal of a focus group is to understand, why do people make certain choices? What is the decision making process with Coca-Cola? Our goal was to find out, why is Coke different than Pepsi? What are the qualities that our ideal customer consciously or unconsciously associates with the Coca-Cola brand different than Pepsi? And so I thought, why don't we take the same methodology and apply it to individuals? And out of that came the 28 questions that you answered when you took the Fascinate test. And I have a little surprise for you, Mark. I talked to my team and I said I loved being part of ESTO. I love destination marketers, because every day, destination marketers have to not only understand how they as individuals are perceived, but their destination in creating the brand. So, Mark, we put together a free code that our audience can use to take a free version, a little free taste of the Fascinate test, to try this on for themselves. 

Mark Lapidus [12:12]: I was hoping you were going to do that. We didn't talk about it before the podcast started, but I really was hoping you would. 

Sally Hogshead [12:17]: Now that I know that you are a Connoisseur, Mark, having taken the Fascinate test, I knew that you would enjoy this. Here's how people can take it. I'm going to give you a URL. Howtofascinate.com/brandusa. All one word. Howtofascinate.com/brandusa. And when you go there, it's the invitation to take a free version of the test. And if you want to, you can upgrade to the full version, which is what our participants got when we were together a couple of days ago at ESTO. 

Mark Lapidus [12:50]: So I am curious about one of my results. I see my primary and secondary advantages, and then underneath it, it says "dormant advantage." What's a dormant advantage? 

Sally Hogshead [12:58]: Your dormant advantage is the mode of communication that drains you, that feels like quicksand. My dormant advantage is Alert. Now, I discovered that there are seven different ways to communicate. Think of it as seven different golf clubs, seven different tools you have in your toolbox. There are two of these advantages that come naturally to you. For you, when you took the Fascinate test, you discovered, Mark, that you communicate with Prestige, which means you want to be able to help others elevate standards to the highest level. Your secondary is Passion, which means you like to bring people in and connect with emotion, which I've had the opportunity in our short conversation to see. You want this podcast to be the highest quality that it can; you sent me clear instructions ahead of time to help make this conversation a win, and as soon as we jumped on the line right here, you helped me feel immediately at home. You asked me questions to build rapport. 

Mark Lapidus [14:00]: Was I that obvious? 

Sally Hogshead [14:01]: Remember, it's how other people see you. That's how I see you, and that's, I imagine for those who are listening, that's how they see you too. But we also have areas, scenarios, or types of discussions that drain us. We all know that for me, my dormant advantage - meaning it's the area that I can draw upon if I need to, but it's going to be emotionally very expensive - is Alert. I hate details. So when I'm confronted with a task that's going to be super nitty-gritty, in the weeds, it's going to involve a spreadsheet, I have to muster all my energy. So we all have a dormant advantage. For somebody with a primary Mystique, they probably very much dislike being thrown into a cocktail party where they have to hand out business cards or introduce themselves, or do the fake hug. Somebody with a primary Power, they don't like being put in the corner and told to just be quiet and listen. We all have areas that put us at a disadvantage. The challenge comes in a scenario, if I work with, say, a client where all they want are daily updates with bullet-point spreadsheets, excel docs... I can do it, but it's gonna be extremely effortful, and it will detract from my ability to exceed their expectations. So how about you? What was your dormant advantage, Mark? 

Mark Lapidus [15:19]: So, mine says Alert, the same as yours. 

Sally Hogshead [15:22]: Yes, I think you and I are similar in that way, that, Mark, if I said to you, "We're gonna go into recording a podcast, every single word has been predetermined. Do not deviate from the script. You must do this exactly the way you do every single other podcast." 

Mark Lapidus [15:36]: God, I would hate that. 

Sally Hogshead [15:37]: You would hate it, right? 

Mark Lapidus [15:38]: It'd be so boring. 

Sally Hogshead [15:40]: It would be so boring. And have you found, Mark, in the course of your career, that it's important for you to work with people who do love detail, who do love predictability? 

Mark Lapidus [15:50]: I do, actually. You're right. 

Sally Hogshead [15:51]: Yes. So your dormant advantage is a way for you to be able to see the blind spots or the quicksand. Why is it that there are some scenarios when you don't get a good outcome? I think it's also important for us all to know we don't have to be perfect for everything. We can't be perfect. When we try to be perfect for everything, we're perfect for nothing. We need to stop watering down our personality. Each of us has a way in which we are naturally primed to succeed; we were born with it. There are areas where we can look back across our past, and if you think of it, almost like lamp posts going all the way back as long as we can remember, there are certain types of challenges and opportunities where we dove in and felt a sense of confidence and flow. And there were other areas where we were penalized. And the reason why is because in those situations, throughout our life, we've been evaluated according to criteria that were simply not the way that we were designed to succeed. For you and I, we have dormant Alert. What that means is, we don't want to play by somebody else's rules in a black and white world. We want to be able to create, develop, envision, and imagine. And for other people, existing in that world of black and white is an area of excellence. I want an accountant who doesn't see the world as watercolor, who knows the IRS handbook backwards and forwards. So we all have the opportunity to be able to over-deliver and outperform. And that's what high performers do. We focus on where we can over-deliver and outperform, and try to be circumspect about committing ourselves and setting expectations in the areas where we are not primed to succeed. 

Mark Lapidus [17:41]: You know, what's really funny about what you're saying is that I used to do, as I mentioned, a lot of focus groups, just like you explained, because I worked in television and radio. Radio, you're constantly testing music because, of course, you want to play the best songs possible, regardless of what format you're in. And in television, you do a lot of testing about personalities. So if you work in news, you're always testing the news personalities to see whether or not the audience actually likes them, right? And what I discovered over many years is that perfection does not work - because when the anchor is too perfect, the audience doesn't like them. They're not relatable. So if they make mistakes and they are very much themselves, they will probably be perceived as being better anchors. 

Sally Hogshead [18:20]: I think that's an outstanding point, because we've all watched helmet hair, dead-eye gaze... There's an interesting report that I just read about people applying to Harvard, who's accepted and who's not. And the report described that of those applying for the entry class of 2023, of the applicants that had a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 SAT - in other words, perfection - 90% were rejected. And it's for the reason that you described today. Being better is not better. The goal is not to be better than your competition. The goal is to be different. Different is better than better. We grew up in a world in which we were told that we need to improve, and we need to fix, we need to take a look at our weaknesses. Today, it's not about fixing yourself. You don't need to fix yourself. You don't need to change who you are. You need to become more of who you are. You need to double down on who you are and turn that into your competitive advantage, so that every time you communicate, you can feel confident and in the flow. You can grow your business. You can expand awareness of your message. And this is also true for destinations. I had the honor of being the emcee at the awards ceremony just 36 hours ago. And when we looked at the winning entries, they were not the ones with the biggest budgets; they didn't have the fanciest execution. They demonstrated something human and raw and real, using insight into human nature. So as marketers, we don't need the biggest budget, but we do need to understand that we can't look at our competition and try to outdo that. You don't need the biggest budget. You need the biggest idea. 

Mark Lapidus [20:08]: This has been such a fun conversation, Sally. I've really enjoyed it. I wish we could talk all day, but I know you're busy and have other things to do. I could sit here all day and talk, but I also want to read your books. By the way, which one should I start with? 

Sally Hogshead [20:20]: I would pick Fascinate: How to Make Your Brand Impossible to Resist, because I dive into the mysteries of, why do people drink Jagermeister when they hate the toxic taste? It tastes like kerosene, yet it's one of the most popular spirits. What is the consumer decision making? What I encourage people to do, if they're interested in learning more about what makes them, as a brand or an individual, more fascinating, is to use this code that is only for this podcast, which is howtofascinate.com/brandusa. 

Mark Lapidus [20:52]: Thank you so much, Sally. 

Sally Hogshead [20:54]: Thank you, Mark. 

Mark Lapidus [20:55]: And that's it for the Brand USA Talks Travel series featuring U.S. Travel Association's ESTO. Back to our regularly scheduled shows next week. I'm Mark Lapidus, thanks for listening. 

Outro [21:05]: Your feedback is welcome! Email us at [email protected] or call 202-793-6256. Brand USA Talks Travel is produced by Asher Meerovich, who also composes music and sound. Engineering by Brian Watkins. With extra help from Bernie Lucas, Nthanze Kariuki, and Casey D'Ambra. Please share this podcast with your friends in the travel industry. You may also enjoy many of our archived episodes, which you can find on your favorite podcast platform. Safe travels!

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